DEVELOPING AN INTEREST IN DHAMMA
Yogi: How can we turn our minds towards Dhamma? How can we develop more confidence in Dhamma?
SUT: When you are new to the practice you will not have much confidence in the Dhamma because there are still a lot of defilements in the mind. In order to make your confidence in the Dhamma grow, you have to clearly understand the benefits of what you are doing. You have to see how Dhamma benefits you in your life. Understanding this is wisdom, and this wisdom will then increase your faith, your confidence.
Can you see the difference between being aware and not being aware?
Yogi: When I am aware I know what is happening, I know what to do.
SUT: How much do you know about your awareness? What benefits do you get from being aware? You need to discover this for yourself. You need to continuously learn from your experience. If you cultivate this kind of ongoing interest in your practice you will understand more and more.
Awareness alone is not enough! You also need to know the quality of that awareness and you need to see whether or not there is wisdom. Once you have seen the difference in mental quality between not being aware and being fully aware with wisdom, you will never stop practising.
Your interest will grow, you will practise more, you will understand more and therefore you will practise even more — it’s a cycle that feeds itself. But this process will take time; it will take time for your awareness to become stronger and for your understanding level to grow.
Yogi: Sometimes I lose interest because I cannot see any progress.
SUT: That’s because you are not learning. You are not really interested in what you are doing. You expect results. You need to learn from what you are doing, not just sit there and expect results. You need to be aware of and learn from what is happening right now, you need to look at the process of meditation itself.
Never get discouraged when you lose awareness. Every time you recognize that you have lost awareness you should be happy. Because the fact that you have recognized that you lost awareness means that you are now aware. Just keep looking at this process of losing and regaining awareness and learn from it. What happens when you lose it, what happens when you regain it? Why do you lose it, how do you regain it? Take an interest in whatever happens, whether good or bad. Every experience is Dhamma, is just the way it is. Good and bad is your personal judgement. If you have the right view, you will accept anything that happens just as it is.
INFORMATION — INTELLIGENCE — WISDOM
Yogi: You always stress the importance of having the right information in order to practise correctly. Can you explain how this process of gathering and applying information works?
SUT: I recently heard about a very interesting model that is used in information technology. You start off with collecting data, the accumulated data becomes information, information develops into knowledge, and using all this knowledge in skilful ways is wisdom.
This is exactly what we do in meditation. When we pay attention to our experiences, we collect data. Once we have a lot of data, we call it information. In this way, a yogi keeps feeding several information streams: data about the body feeds the information stream about the physical processes, data about the mind processes will accumulate as information on feelings, emotions, etc. Putting all this information together enables the mind to understand how physical and mental processes interact, and this is knowledge.
Awareness works at the data level; awareness is just gathering data. Our innate wisdom, our intelligence, collects and channels the data into streams of information, and by comparing these streams of information it creates knowledge. Wisdom then uses this knowledge about the interaction of physical and mental processes in skilful ways in order to positively influence events. To the extent that wisdom understands causes and effects, it knows how to work on the causes and conditions.
Yogi: Where does the information you give us fit in?
SUT: I have gone through this process of data – information – knowledge – wisdom. I try to pass on my knowledge and wisdom on how to practise. I teach you how to collect the data into streams of information, how to work with these streams of information so that they become knowledge, and how to apply this knowledge so that you gain more wisdom. You have to do all the work yourself; I can just advise you on how to do it. Once you have seen the benefits of working in this way and have become skilful at maintaining all these processes, you will keep expanding them and keep growing in wisdom. When you keep practising in this way, awareness and wisdom will eventually always be present and then insights can arise.
Insights can arise under very ordinary circumstances. The object of your observation can be a very simple and straightforward one, but the insight can be very deep, a world apart from the simplicity of the experience. The object can be something you come across every day, but the insight will be mind-blowing. For example, while smelling the soap when taking a shower you suddenly and very deeply understand that there is just this smelling and knowing, that there is nobody doing it, that these processes just happen by themselves.
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Yogi: I am trying to be aware of whatever happens. You told us that we need to be aware intelligently. Can you say more about this?
SUT: As long as your mind remains equanimous, all you need to do is be open and receptive. Whenever something comes up, you need to reflect on it wisely. As a vipassanā practitioner you first accept whatever is happening. You acknowledge that you are worried, that you are sick, etc. But then you need to ask yourself: “What am I going to do about it?” You need to bring in wisdom. The defilements cannot have their way if you give wisdom priority. You have to use wise thinking to decide how to handle things; you cannot just try to be aware. That’s not good enough. The defilements are very dominant in the mind, they are very experienced, they are very skilful, and they will always get their way if we are not aware that they are present. If you don’t fully recognize them and bring in wisdom, they will take over your mind.
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Yogi: You said that some form of wisdom is always present in moments when there is no greed, aversion, or delusion. How can I become aware of this wisdom?
SUT: First you need to ask yourself: “Am I really aware of my present experience?” Then: “How do I think about this experience, what are my views connected to it?” If you can recognize right views, that’s wisdom at work. But you might see wrong views a moment later and it is important that you keep an eye on them. Your experience is constantly changing, right and wrong views keep coming and going and so you need to keep investigating your experience moment to moment.
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Yogi: I have been thinking about the difference between what we call right attitude versus Right Effort as described in the Noble Eightfold Path. It seems to me that they are contradicting each other. Right attitude seems all about non-involvement, about accepting and just letting be. Right Effort on the other hand seems all about getting involved; trying to get rid of defilements or preventing them from arising, as well as cultivating good mind states.
SUT: What is going to prevent the defilements from arising and what is going to remove the defilements that have already arisen? Which quality of mind is going to do that? Awareness cannot do it, only wisdom can do it. So when the Buddha talks about this, he really wants people to develop the wisdom which will do that work. Because we don’t understand what the Buddha meant, we think that we personally have to try to prevent or remove the defilements.
We can use effort to practise or we can use wisdom. The Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta tells us to use wisdom to practise. If you want to use effort you still have to watch the mind — because the defilements arise in the mind — and you also have to watch the mind continuously. How else could you prevent the kilesas from entering? Are you able to be right there every time a mind arises? If you can do that, be right there, every moment, with awareness, always ready, you can prevent the defilements from coming in. You have to fill every moment with awareness and that is a lot of effort. You have to be a very dedicated practitioner and do a lot of work. Do you think you can do that much work?
Another way to do it is to cultivate wholesome qualities of mind. If we always cultivate wholesome qualities, the unwholesome qualities will automatically be replaced. That is why the Buddha told us not to do anything bad and to do things that are good. You can use your mind full-time to do everything right: Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Thought. If the mind is full of this all the time, bad states of mind cannot enter. We need to keep watching the mind all the time. We have to keep a tag on the mind, always be aware of what is going on and keep working on it. It is a full-time job. As long as you are busy doing good things, you have no time to do anything bad.
If you want to practise with effort, think all the good things you can, say all the good things you can, and do all the good things you can. That’s for people who are effort oriented. For them this is very effective because they like to be working. People who are awareness oriented, people who are very alert, sharp, very aware, should spend more time practising awareness. Those who are wisdom oriented can make more use of the ideas of Right View and Right Thought. People who have very good concentration can begin by doing samatha and then switch to vipassanā. Faith oriented people can start by contemplating the qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha. The Buddha taught so many kinds of practices because there are so many different kinds of personalities. But no matter which of these practices you do, you cannot do any of them without knowing the mind.
Yogi: So wisdom comes from understanding, when I look at the aversion…
SUT: Wisdom starts with information. Right information is part of our wisdom. Then we use our intelligence, our logic, our reasoning to figure out how to use the information we have. All this is wisdom at work. When we try to find out how we do things right, how we do things wrong, when we learn our lessons and how to practise, all that is also wisdom at work. Knowing how to do something is wisdom. All the people in the Buddha’s time who got immediately enlightened after listening to a teaching from the Buddha were wisdom oriented people. The rest of the listeners had to continue practising.
Wisdom is the fastest way. No matter what practice you start with, you will end up doing vipassanā. As long as the defilements are very strong, never try to see or understand — that’s mission impossible. We can only remain aware of whatever is going on and collect little bits of wisdom. As long as the defilements are very strong in the mind, we cannot develop very deep wisdom. But if we keep collecting these little bits, wisdom will grow. When there is more and more wisdom, the defilements will decrease.
A yogi once asked me whether it was possible to suddenly enter Nibbāna by accident. That’s impossible. There is no reason why you should just stumble into Nibbāna. You have to pay the price. Only when the conditions are fulfilled, the effect will come about. Be patient and work steadily. Don’t think about it, don’t hope for it, and just keep practising. You will know when you are very far away, and you will also know when you are getting nearer.
ONLY WISDOM UNDERSTANDS
Yogi: We were talking about conflicts between the habitual unconscious mind, pushing you to do something in one way, and the meditating mind which is trying to learn new habits, trying the techniques of vipassanā. Are there any other ways, any other tools besides concentration, to work with such conflicts so that they don’t prevent progress?
SUT: There are two ways to change a habit. One is using samādhi and the other is using paññā. The problem with using samādhi is that this only helps you to temporarily subdue the conflicts. If you are very skilled at samādhi, you might be able to do this successfully over a long period of time. But this approach does not at all deal with the underlying reasons for that conflict. Therefore the conflict will come up again with full strength as soon as you stop practising samādhi. Only when we try to look at the situation in a discerning way, when we are learning to understand the underlying causes and conditions, can we develop the wisdom necessary to free the mind from a particular conflict. Samādhi tries to keep something at bay, wisdom understands.
Yogi: If I experience any kind of pain, no matter whether physical or emotional, there is always an instant response. It happens so fast and automatically, my emotional reaction is so strong and immediate that it is too late to bring in any vipassanā reflections. It seems to me that doing samādhi is a skilful way of dealing with such situations, of temporarily calming oneself.
SUT: Vipassanā is not just a process of sitting and watching. In such a situation you need to remind yourself of the right view towards what is happening. You need to acknowledge that it is happening and accept it — as it is. Then you examine what is happening and try to learn from it, try to understand the nature of this kind of mind, try to understand how it works. But this takes time; it will take many such observations for true understanding to arise. Once you have really understood a problem or a conflict situation, the mind will be free from this suffering. Only then will it no longer react when confronted with a similar situation. Acquiring this kind of wisdom is of course not easy. Practising in this way can be quite difficult, particularly at the beginning. We need a lot of patience and perseverance.
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Yogi: I had an interesting experience yesterday and I wonder whether you would call it an insight. I suddenly became aware that I was holding the view that my retreat here had been a complete failure, that I had not made any progress. It really hit me very deeply that this was such a wrong view and it felt very painful realizing that I had been carrying this wrong view. But after that, for the next several hours, I was much more open and sensitive. I could feel the wind on my skin and I was moving quite slowly — ordinarily I walk around very quickly. When I met people I could feel very subtle reactions towards them, and I could see things in my mind that I would not ordinarily see. There was so much more clarity than I usually experience. Still, I am not sure whether this was an insight or not.
SUT: Yes it was. Whenever there is an insight, it gives a lot of strength to the mind; it enhances all the good qualities of the mind. It’s amazing how quickly and strongly the mind pattern can change, isn’t it? Only true understanding can have such a tremendous effect on the mind. When something is realized in such a clear way, it is an insight. One might be uncertain whether an experience was the result of an insight — as in your case — but there will be no doubt at all about the truth of what you have realized, right?
Yogi: Yes, that’s right.
SUT: This was just a small insight. Imagine what effect a vipassanā insight, an insight into the true nature of things would have!
DIRECTING THE MIND
Yogi: Why is it that when I intentionally get myself ready to accept something that’s happening (e.g. a mosquito biting me), the mind can tolerate it easily and does not react, but when I am not prepared (and a mosquito bites me) I get angry quickly?
SUT: The mind needs to be directed. We also need to have a direction in which we want to lead our lives. We set directions for the mind all the time. Once you have set a direction for the mind, then all the succeeding minds will follow that lead. The mind is a natural process. If you leave the mind undirected there will be chaos.
Yogi: Can you give me an example?
SUT: OK. If there is anger and you decide to investigate this emotion you are setting the mind in the right direction. If, however, you decide to try to get rid of this anger, you are directing the mind wrongly.
CONSISTENT PRACTICE DEEPENS UNDERSTANDING
Yogi: I often feel a resistance to investigate. I am very busy with trying to observe, with being aware of my experiences, and I seem to be afraid of missing something if I investigate. There is this feeling that I don’t have the time to do it. Maybe there is some greed involved.
SUT: Just do what is important and let go of everything that is not important. You only want to be open and receptive when there is equanimity. But when you are experiencing strong emotions, put your energies into dealing with them; that’s the important issue at hand — forget whatever else is happening. If you ignore an emotion and try to keep track of everything else that is going on instead, it will remain at the back of your mind. But as soon as there is an opportunity, the emotion will come up again and give you a lot of trouble. The function of awareness is to recognize everything that is happening in the mind. Wisdom decides which issues need to be dealt with.
Yogi: I guess I just don’t have enough wisdom yet.
SUT: You need to give yourself time. Go slowly, feel your way through the things that are happening, try to understand and gather as much information as you can. Whenever you feel that there is an issue that needs to be looked into, investigate it. What is going on in the mind will seem rather chaotic at first. You need to look at the same issues repeatedly and from different angles. As your awareness becomes more continuous, your mind will become calmer and you will begin to understand which issues are important and which are not.
Yogi: Does that mean that if I just keep at it, if I just keep reminding myself to be aware, no matter what, that the mind will eventually calm down and begin to understand?
SUT: Yes, your level of understanding depends on the level of practice, on how consistently you practise. In the beginning we need a lot of awareness in order to build a foundation. We don’t really have any understandings of our own and therefore we need to rely on information to help us in our practice. After some time we will start having little understandings, little insights.
As long as we keep practising we will be able to maintain this level of understanding. If we don’t practise wholeheartedly, however, if we only practise intermittently, the level of understanding won’t grow and we won’t get any more skilful. In case we stop practising altogether, delusion will start growing again. If we neglect our practice for a long time, delusion will start clouding over again all the things we once understood.
But if we practise diligently and continually, we will keep having these small understandings and insights over and over again. If we refresh and maintain them over a long period of time, they will become so persistent that they will work together with awareness. Once wisdom starts working together with awareness, they will move on to a bigger level of understanding. We will have bigger insights.
These bigger understandings have a life of their own, they have more power. They are not so dependent anymore on awareness. Once we have had such insights, they will always be available; wisdom will always be there. At this stage, awareness will step back, so to speak, will play an inferior role. It will always be present because wisdom cannot exist without awareness, but at this level of understanding, wisdom begins to have a life of its own. Awareness will keep feeding wisdom and our understandings will grow in strength. At this stage, the mind always knows what to do, and it can happen that the practice becomes so easy that it will keep going even if we are not making any effort to practise.
Yogi: I can see that this is possible if one lives in a spiritual community. Personally, and I am sure that this is true for most other people, I find it very difficult to keep up continuity in modern society.
SUT: Yesterday a yogi talked about this too. He told me that he finds it easy to remain aware of everything he is doing and to maintain a calm and balanced mind but that when he is with other people he finds it very difficult to be aware. I pointed out to him that the difference in the two scenarios is that in the first case the attention is directed ‘inwards’ and in the second it is directed ‘outwards’. If you focus all attention ‘inwards’ you cannot interact with the ‘outside’, if you put it all ‘outside’ you cannot know yourself. You need to learn to do both, and this takes practice.
Yogi: I understand what you say but the world ‘out there’ is so different from a retreat situation and I always very quickly get pulled into things.
SUT: Why do you allow yourself to get pulled in? Nobody is really pulling us in; this mind wants to get sucked in. Who is more important, you or other people?
Yogi: Well, I am.
SUT: You pay attention to the ‘outside’ because you think that it is important for you. If the quality of your mind was really important to you, you would always pay attention to it and take care of it. You would always check the state of your mind, in every situation. What is more important, talking to someone or your mind state?
Yogi: My mind comes first.
SUT: Yes, you have to take care of your mind first, and then you can relate to others.
Yogi: Putting this into practice will certainly be a challenge. It will be very interesting to see what comes up.
JOY IN THE PRACTICE
Yogi: I have a question about the place of joy in the practice. I am asking this because I got this idea that if you like something it is kind of bad. For example the other morning I saw the sunrise and I could notice this joy coming up. It felt very natural. Is it bad to enjoy something like that?
SUT: Let it happen naturally. In vipassanā we don’t tell you that you cannot feel things. Just notice that this is happening. Whenever you recognize that something is happening, it means that your mind has taken in some information. When you are aware continuously and observe similar events again and again, you will become aware of the effects of having certain states of mind. You see it as natural phenomena happening in the present moment.
I am neither telling you to go out and enjoy yourself nor to not enjoy yourself. If enjoyment naturally arises in the present moment, know that it is happening. But don’t get carried away, don’t get involved, and also don’t suppress it. Recognize it is happening and be with it. Feeding your enjoyment, trying to get more and more is one extreme, suppressing it is the other extreme. The Buddha told us to take the middle way. Recognize the enjoyment with the right attitude. A feeling is just a feeling, enjoyment is just enjoyment.
NO INTEREST IN THE PRACTICE
Yogi: You encourage us to ask questions in order to enliven the practice, to stir up interest. It does not seem to work for me; the mind does not seem to be interested. What can I do?
SUT: Ask the mind why it is not interested! [Laughter] When you ask questions you need to ask the sort of questions you are really interested in. Only when you really want to know, will the mind become interested. If you just throw in a question because you have been told to, out of a sense of duty, it is not going to work.
Yogi: OK, I will try to find out what the mind is really interested in. Would you advise me to ask many different questions or just one question at a time?
SUT: Usually it is best to just ask one question at a time. At the beginning of your practice it will be necessary to think up questions to ask yourself. As your practice develops, awareness becomes more continuous and wisdom starts to work. The mind will develop a sense of curiosity, a natural tendency to investigate. Curiosity is an expression of wisdom. Questions will now come naturally to the mind and give it a sense of direction in which it will continue to observe. Once you find that the mind asks questions naturally, there is no more need to intentionally think them up. Just use the questions that arise naturally.
Yogi: Does this mean you only encourage thinking about the practice but you do not encourage general conceptual thinking during practice?
SUT: Sometimes you have to think through something in order to figure out what you need to do. Thinking is an essential activity of the mind. We just need to be careful not to get involved, not to get carried away by the thinking or planning mind.
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Yogi: For me it is very easy to find the motivation to practise when I am suffering. But when there is no obvious suffering I find it very difficult to sustain interest in the practice. I don’t have a strong sense of curiosity.
SUT: When I began to practise in earnest it was because I was suffering. I wanted to know why the mind was suffering. By the time I had overcome that particular problem, the mind had realized that there was now less suffering because of all the understanding and wisdom that had been gained. The mind had become interested in the process of learning and wanted to know more and more.
Yogi: What do we do though if the mind has neither had this kind of understanding nor developed a genuine interest in the practice?
SUT: Then we just need to keep plodding on until we really understand what we are doing. It is absolutely vital that we recognize the value of awareness itself. We need to value the actual work of being aware. We need to understand that this activity brings the results. The moment we become aware, we replace not knowing with knowing. Only when we know, can we understand and develop an interest in what is happening. Understanding what is happening will bring peace to the mind. Once you understand the preciousness of this process, you will feel joy and you will always be interested in looking deeper and deeper.
CULTIVATING RIGHT EFFORT
Yogi: I know that by diligent right practice the idea of self will go away and be replaced by Right View. But the actual practice itself feels like working hard at a task. I am trying to accomplish something and therefore there is a grasping associated with the self. Could you comment on this?
SUT: It is very important to have the right information before we start practising. Don’t identify with the effort, but instead recognize that what is doing the work is effort plus whatever other qualities that are involved. These qualities are at work, not ‘I’.
Right effort is only possible if the mind has the right information, if it really understands what right effort is. We are working towards a goal, but getting to the goal will happen sometime in the future. Right now we need to know how to work. We need to know what right effort is and what right practice is.
A mind which is striving towards a goal, which is focused on achieving a certain result, is motivated by greed. Wisdom knows the cause-effect relationships and it will therefore concentrate on fulfilling the causes and conditions.
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Yogi: Walking meditation is very straightforward; I am usually bright and alert all the time. But sitting meditation is very different. I normally begin sitting meditation with a sense of clarity but then it regularly changes into a dull sort of mind state. What am I doing wrong?
SUT: When alertness fades, it indicates that there is lack of right effort. You need to pay more attention to the observing mind. Watch the quality of the mind that is working to be aware, and notice when it changes.
Try to notice the difference in energy needed to remain aware in different postures. When you are walking, the mind is fairly busy and aware of many different objects. When you sit, the mind has much less to do and therefore you need to learn to ‘tune’ the mind to remain bright and alert in this position.
Yogi: I try to apply energy to stay alert when I sit, but I think what happens is that I am trying too hard or in the wrong way because I always tire myself out. Then I get this feeling that it is all a waste of time.
SUT: You need to apply wisdom to keep the mind alert and interested. Trying to get the mind more interested in what is happening is ‘wisdom effort’. The kind of strenuous effort you have been using is more physical and therefore you inevitably become tired. If a sense of curiosity does not come naturally, you can ask yourself questions. Asking questions helps the mind to remain interested and therefore alert.
PRACTISING LIKE A SICK PERSON
Yogi: I have been sick and therefore have been feeling very tired and heavy. But actually this has been a good time for practice because there has been less trying, I cannot try, I can just observe.
SUT: That’s good. That’s exactly the mind state you are advised to have when you are told to practise like a sick person! It does not mean to move around slowly. The mind of a really sick person does not want to do anything but just passively observes and accepts the situation.
MAKING A DECISION
Yogi: How can I become more decisive in my thoughts and actions? How can I learn to make decisions more quickly?
SUT: Do you need to make decisions quickly or correctly? Is it more important to be fast or right? If there are no defilements in your mind and if you have awareness and understanding, there is no need to think. The mind knows what to do because you are ready, because the understanding is already there. But if there is any like or dislike, if there is any kind of agitation in your mind, you cannot make the right choice. Whenever you need to make a decision but find your mind is agitated, wait until your mind has calmed down and only then decide.
Make it a habit to watch out for any emotional disturbances. When you can keep your mind clear of them, when there is no eagerness to get things done, wisdom can come in and make the decision. Of course you also need to have all the necessary information to decide. Never decide because you like or dislike something. Always take your time to make a decision, check your attitude, clear your mind.